That's one of the biggest problems I have with evangelists (and your god, if it existed). The only way for someone to believe in your religion is if they already believe it, or have an "experience". Such experiences can actually be replicated with an electromagnet aimed at the brain. Sadly, there aren't many sites on the subject aimed at laypeople, but look up Neuro-Electromagnetic-Ontology (NEMO) if you're interested.



We know. Or at least, I know. But it's fun.

hugbug, I was brought up in a non-church going family but it was the 'done' thing to send the children to Sunday school. So I went to Sunday school and then after we moved house and I went to a different church I decided that I wanted keep going for myself, in other words I was no longer 'sent'. My brother decided he no longer wanted to go to church and left. So no, big event for me, I just believed and had faith. I gave my life to Jesus aged 17, I'm now 52.

Reincarnation exists, in the form of molecules being reused and remade into something else when something dies and rots. But eternal life? *shakes head in wonder*

Everything that makes a person into who they are is made up of memories. There are centers of the brain dedicated to keeping memories safe. If these areas are damaged, the person changes. Maybe in little ways, maybe in big ways. Without memories we would not be able to learn, or to talk, or to... well, to do anything, really. Without memories, a human being is not much more than an empty shell.

Braindead people sometimes have most of their lower brain functions intact. They can breathe, their heart can beat, but they're no longer themselves, and can no longer interact with the world around them. Their upper brain, the parts storing their memories and thought patterns are dead. No activity. Tell me, if they stay like this for days, maybe weeks - where is their soul stored? How is it stored? Because technically they are not quite dead yet. They're just in a phase between. Since the memories are stored in the brain cells, they now have nowhere to go.

I think that when the brain dies, so does the memories. Or the soul, if you want. Because what else would you do with the souls from the billions of people who have ever died? If heaven contains all of those, it must be a really, really big place. And crowded. Another dimension, maybe (and we still don't know if those exist).



That is exactly what the word "faith" is all about. Believing something that isn't proved. Sure, you MUST have faith to believe in a god, because there is no other way to believe in a god.



Proves nothing what so ever, as there are some Christians/other religious people who read their favored text of choice and become atheists. Plenty of people.

I went to Sunday School until I was twelve. Didn't see the metaphorical light, even if I tried, and after a while I couldn't stand the hymns and the repeated stories on felt boards, so I quit. Going to church always made me feel uncomfortable, as in "what in the name of sanity am I throwing away my time on here?" (I was 8-10 years old, and not just plain bored with the rituals, but actually wondering what the point of it was).

I even tried the whole confirmation business (but more out of a "growing up" ritual and family tradition than a religious ritual - my family consists of more or less practicing Christians, from a max of 1-2 church visits a year, to every Sunday, and I didn't even bother to argue). But there was still no methaphoric "light" to be seen on the religious front.

After gathering a lot of life experience, I'm going more and more toward the atheist way (probably there already). My experience is that prayers don't work. Not for curing sick people (more than enough dead family members to prove that), nor for helping someone through a hard period of time (although I wish there had been). What I have done to keep sane is entirely my own doing, maybe except from some gentle prodding in the right direction from people who knew what they were doing.

Believing in a god has never helped me, nor do I think it ever will. I have seen the light now. It has the shape of a fluorescent tube and hangs over my head, stuck to the ceiling. It's called "the real world", and is so much more rewarding than religion ever was.

But do go on with your belief in the invisible being(s), if it makes you happy
I don't really care, you see, but I do love discussions even if they don't lead anywhere. I know people are prone to put "magic" into the equation when there are things they don't understand. And I'll refrain to quote my favorite author (who actually has several very interesting things pointed out in his books) as long as I don't get any more bible verses shoved up in my face (because personally I don't view biblical sayings as valid proof of anything other than that the people who wrote it had a very vivid imagination).

I do believe there are things we can't explain. Yet. But I don't put the all-powerful "god" sticker on it. I just wait until someone comes up with an actual explanation.

So you already believed it - or had been taught it for years - thus you believed it. That doesn't seem to rebut my point.

The thing about religion is that most of those who truly believes in whatever their religion teaches have been indoctrined to believe it from their birth. There are exceptions, usually considering disease, prison confinement, marriage, near-accidents, or what I like to call "hallucinations".

For most people it's not as much faith as it is tradition.

*cough* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo *cough*
(who by the way is not the author I referred to above - he just have a lot of stuff to say, and I happen to agree with him on most of it. Plus, he's funny)

Here's by the way one out of many who was a Christian and became an atheist by reading the bible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3rGev6OZ3w

And Stephen Fry has a lot of quite interesting things to say about religion, too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqib...detailpage#t=0s

Hugbug, You state the only way to believe in Karen’s religion of Christianly is, (1)“ if they already believe it, or (2) have an "experience".

That raises the question, if they already believe it how did they come to believe it in the first place? You said the only other way was to have an ‘experience.’ That means according to your opinion that the only way to believe in Christianly is to have an ‘experience.’

Millions world wide have come to Christianly in different ways and show your opinion to be completely wrong. Karen herself just stated a fact, a fact you disputed with only your opinion, that being, “There are some people that become Christians purely by reading the Bible.”

You should realize everyone now knows you are here to have fun, and not to believe your opinions, especially when you contradict some one that has just stated a known fact.

She also stated an indispensable truth that you have to ‘believe and have faith in what the Bible is teaching you.’

The truth is you can’t put faith in something you know little about. Most people today give the Bible short shift for various reasons. The one thing most don’t do is read the Bible to see if what they heard/read about it is true. Reading the Bible for yourself is something that has to be done. The Bible itself says, “Make sure of all things.” (1 Thess. 5:21)

Wikipedia says there are 41,000 self proclaimed Christian denominations nowadays. Christ Jesus started how many? Just one.

The Bible is the only place you can determine if a denomination is doing Gods will or not. What you do is compare what a denomination teaches with what the Bible says to do. It’s much easier to find the true religion this way than most people think.

Bible prophecy shows we are living in the last days before God’s War of Armageddon. To be blunt, billions of people are going to die in that war unless they change their ways. The thing is, God also plans to give everlasting life to those obedient to him and his son.

Thus everyone needs to heed Bible counsel and “Prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and complete will of God.” (Rom. 12:2)

How they came to beleve it? Easy! Most grew up with it. Most have parents or other family who are religious. Religion is a tradition, carried down with the generations. Not many people all of a sudden decides "Oh wait! I want to be religious!" without having some version of "I saw -insert holy image- in a dream/viewing"- experience.

Everyone grows up with slightly different views of their religion, depending on how their parents believes it, or whether they are influenced by other religions or views. Those who are "self-proclaimed" either had some sort of "experience" as mentioned above, marry into a religious family, or just decide that they need to believe in something.

"Making sure of all things" is usually what I do. And for me it works. I cannot be sure there is a god, so I choose not to believe it. Simple as that. I won't say all bible sayings are rubbish, because some of them are actually worth listening to. I see it as taking advice, but it is my decision whether to follow it blindly or think it through.

Jesus wasn't a Christian. If he really did exist, he was Jewish... Christians are the followers of Jesus' words (or something such).

I don't believe in Armageddon/the Apocalypse, and if something of the kind happens anyway, it won't be in my days. So I don't worry and stay happy. Armageddon was said to happen some 1000 years ago. And 200 years later. And some years after that, several times during 1900-2000, and even last year. You know what? Still hasn't happened. Sure, humans are more than capable of destroying ourselves, so a human-made apocalypse might happen some hundreds to thousands of years into the future. And one day, some billions of years into the future, the sun is going to swallow up the Earth (which is a perfectly normal end in a star's life cycle). But God's armageddon? Nah. Everlasting life? Nope (see comment above).

As for your final words there, I choose to use my free will, thank you. My free will coming from having a human brain and mind. I don't follow anyone blindly, and I don't feel like proving myself to someone I don't even think exists. Like George Carlin says, religion is a brilliant way to control people's minds, and people even willingly let it happen.

As for these two... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H9BuxeNro0 - well, isn't that how it always is with most religions? The whole "my sky cake is better than your sky pie" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w)?

This one also has a point or two... http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...w-idOwUc#t=547s
This one, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt4xJsfCBPA

And another who became an atheist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBdhnmnLnUc

You usually make sure of all things, but this time you didn't because you couldn't be sure isn't very good logic in as much as not making sure this time could cost you your life.

Umm... in which way can it cost me my life? I've so far lived for about 10 years or thereabout thinking there is no god, and even longer knowing I didn't believe in the Christian god (with a more agnostic view). The worst accident I've had was when someone knocked me out with a football when I was still young enough to believe in a god (somewhere around 3-4 years or so).

As an atheist, the whole point is that one don't believe in a heaven or hell. Sure, the thought of heaven is very nice and all, and I sometimes like to think that loved ones really do end up in a nice place when they die, but that does not mean I truly believe it. I have attended funerals. I know what happens to something that has died, and it's not nice. I've also had biology lessons at school, and I'm pretty sure humans aren't any different from an animal in how they die (we are advanced monkeys, so technically we are animals). I also know a lot of people suffer immensely before they die. Is your view of heaven a reward for suffering? If so, it's a horrible thought. Especially because two of my said loved ones did suffer quite a lot.

Sorry and all, but I cannot see your logic.

If this god of yours cared what I believe... then there would not be one single atheist, agnostic, hindu, buddhist, or follower of any other religion, because they would all have been struck dead. There would only be Christians, Jews and Muslims (and variations of these) - because, technically, they all follow the same god. They just don't realize it and like to think their version is the best, end of story, their sky cake is THE BEST!!!!!

I can't make sure there is a god, and I can't make sure there isn't one. But to be fair, no one can. Not even you. My logic says there isn't one. A lot of other people seem to agree with me, and the atheistic comedians in particular make very good points (see the above videos). So I've chosen to not believe in the god, because... well, I don't usually believe in things I can't see. I'm one of those kids who never believed in Santa either, and I knew fairies were fairytales all the way since I read my first book with fairies in it. I was certain my mom was the tooth fairy when I found two coins instead of the usual one coin. Religion was not much more than tradition in our home, which I'm glad for. I never prayed, because I knew from the age of 4 that prayers didn't work.

I am no more likely to start believing in fairies, than I am likely to start believing in a god again. To be fair, I don't think I ever believed in a god, not even when I was a toddler.

I like to read fairytales, but I know they are not real. Unlike certain others...

And... Who or what created god? Were there ever more gods than one? How come people believe in different gods? How come they believed in different gods in earlier times than they do now? There were Norse gods and Greek gods and Roman gods (some of them were technically the same, much like the islam and Christian/Jewish god), there were sky gods, there were earth gods, there were sun gods. There were spirit gods. Gods of this and gods of that. The native Americans had some, aborriginians had others, and various tribes around the world still believes other gods. There have been so many gods over the years, that it's impossible for me to think that one is the true god. Because - let's face it - which is the right one to pick? The one that says "I'm the right god! Pick me!!!"? Because they all did at some point...

I'd rather have no god.

Besides, I think it's a whole lot more awesome to think that everything is random. A whole lot of things suddenly start making sense when one realizes that. A world that is random does not have a pre-destined fate, which means it could be anything. If we humans just get our heads up from the sand and realize that the world has indeed changed the past thousands of years, then we might actually be able to do something. Like stop all the warfare. Nearly all warfare comes from two reasons: Religion and argues over resources. Without religion we might even be able to sort out our differences and share - because religion has so far not been able to do that. Religion causes more differences and more arguing among people than any other thing. Just sayin'...

Well, you're ignoring me, but I'mma answer anyway:



Like simmer22 said, because they were born into it. That's mostly how religion, all religion, propagates, you know, not evangelism. This is not rocket science.



Nope, there's being born into it and never seeing a reason to doubt or question what you were taught to believe from birth. I would add some things to Hugbug's list, too: There are also people who convert to make significant others happy, not because they really believe. There are people who are guilted into believing, too, especially by folks who preach hell/punishment and/or annihilation upon death. There are people who go through hard times and decide "Maybe there's something to this God thing" and decide to believe...only to revert when the times inevitably get better. Most of these people are, IMO, on the fast track to apostasy, and it is unfortunately this sort of "Christian" that evangelism tends to create. Really, y'all need to stick to retaining those who already believe, IMO.

Anyway, overall, I fail to see how you have poked a hole into Hugbug's arguments.

In my own case, my belief is based on personal experiences, which is why I say that I have no evidence that God exists that anyone other than me will believe is valid. In my case, I've just been lucky to find a number of other people who've had similar kinds of experiences. Some would say that we're all insane...and maybe we are. But if I'm insane, at least I'm a mostly harmless kind of insane.



I don't want to put words in Hugbug's mouth, but I'm betting that she'd categorize a good chunk of those "millions" as those who believe because of experience. As in, they read the Bible and experience some sort of spiritual epiphany, for instance. So, you have not contradicted her at all, if I'm right in my bet.



Well, I dunno if Hugbug's having fun, but I am. The fact of the matter is that she rejects God and identifies as an atheist, if memory serves. I reject Witness theology and a good chunk of more standard Christian theology as well. OF COURSE we're going to have opinions and they're going to contradict yours. As I said, opinion is all that religious "debate" like you'll find here can be.



I dunno about you, but I know a lot more atheists who've read the whole Bible than I know Christians who've read the whole darn thing. (The latter wouldn't include me, though.) Most non-believers who read the Bible give it "short shrift" because of its manifold internal inconsistencies/outright contradictions and, in some cases, because of its contradictions with modern science. This is the whole problem with insisting that the Bible is "God's Word," you see. If it is, then God is a liar or an idiot or both. In addition, most people who don't believe in God disbelieve because of a lack of evidence for His existence. If they don't believe in God, then why on Earth should they care about what the Bible says? For them, the Bible is irrelevant to their lives.



Um, Christ Jesus started none, actually. His disciples (plus Paul) started the Christian church after Jesus's sacrifice. And that "church" was quite a bit different than any modern denomination.



Nah. I determine a denomination's "worthiness" simply by looking at its fruit. There's a passage in Matthew about being able to detect false prophets. That's what I do, compare what they do/say to the Greatest Commandment. (And I sure hope you know what that is.) Any church that falls short of the Greatest Commandment is not worthy of calling itself a church. Any church that preaches hatred/intolerance of anyone because of their "sinning" is wrong as well as grossly hypocritical and, again, is not doing God's will at all. Unfortunately, most churches these days don't measure up well. Certainly the "mega-churches" do not and...Well, I gotta call it like I see it: Neither do the more cult-like ones like the Witnesses.



Except that the Bible contradicts itself all over the place, especially if not read in context. For example...Hmmm...Must we follow the dietary laws or not? Must we observe the Jewish festivals? Must we refrain from doing any work on the Sabbath or not? I know what my answers are. What are yours?



Except that Jesus Himself said that He would return in the same generation he left. He said it multiple times. All signs in Revelation point to it being a nice big allegory all about AD 70, written AFTER the fact. Armageddon's come and gone, just as Jesus said. Sitting around waiting for it when you should be figuring out what God wants of you is a terrible waste of time.



OK...So, you believe that Jesus is God's first creation and in that sense he is God's son, right? And that he is a god but not God yet is still to be worshipped, right? How is that not polytheism again? And if you concede that it's polytheism, how do you reconcile that with numerous Old Testament passages?



Nah, you don't need the Bible's counsel. You need GOD'S counsel and no one and nothing else's. Like I said, a lot of Christians, including the Witnesses if they're now calling themselves Christians, have turned the Bible, a tool, into an idol. They need to get their faces out of their Bibles and turn it instead toward God. They need to shut up and listen. God will tell you all you need to know. If you're interested in His opinion, that is. If you're not, then go about your merry way. It's all good.

I sort of can imagine that a lot of people have gotten the same introduction to Christianity as Dave here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk (and are equally befuddled at first).

As this is a debate, I won't go insane with my thoughts.

In my family, when we get to be 12 years old, we get to pick our own religion.Meaning that in my family, there's Evangelicals, Protestants, Baptists, Atheists, Agnostics, catholics, Chruch of Ireland, Roman Catholic, and a few others.(I have a MASSIVE family)

So, we just read all the bibles and stuff, check out synagogues and churches, and just look on the internet and stuff until we find our favorite, then just go ahead with that religion.(Though, most are Christians and still are, some stayed what they were in the first place).

I'm from a pretty awkward spot.My dad's side are all faithful church-going Roman Catholics, who are....not quite tolerant....To some other religions....(I am far from them, I like all, go on bros, believe anything that floats your boat!)

My mom's side are all the above religions, and accept all religions, support homosexualism, meditate, etc.

So, if I were to change religion, my dad's side would object.My grandma pressured my mom into baptising me as a Roman Catholic child, and I had a communion.Now, my religion is kinda....Undecided...

So yeah, i'm ok with Christians!Some of them are pretty darn cool people, but some just go too far.A majority of my Friends are Christian, but a majority of my enemies are too.I guess, like all religions, you love them or you don't.In my case, I let them believe what they like to believe, because that's their thought.

Okay as I Catholic I can tell you why your family is "not quite tolerant....To some other religions." We believe Roman Catholicism is the one true faith and everyone should be a part of it so it is only natural to disagree with other faiths. This is the reason they want you to stay with your baptized nature. Technically, in order to be truly Catholic one must follow all aspects of our teaching and try to help others see the truth. However, so many things have happened with the churches on earth and have lead many away from us, but the Church (capital C) still stands strong. (sorry if this made it confusing)

Aren't all religions ultimately "the one true faith" to those who believe in it?

(Which ultimately means one of two things: Either all but one are wrong, or all are wrong. They can't all be right, naturally, because most of the beliefs go against the other beliefs in their most fundamental structure, such as something so simple as the creation of the world, and that is just one example. The argument is still going on to this day, and unless some comes up with some ultimate proof for one or the other, I doubt it will ever be settled... I'm for the "all are wrong" theory, because it seems a whole lot more reasonable than all the other mumbo jumbo put together).

Once upon a time, people wanted an excuse to make war, an explanation for all the weird things they saw, a single point to rally behind. So they created a war god. Some of the desert tribes believed in it, others believed in other gods. But the war god's followers killed everyone else. The only people left were the ones enslaved, the ones who converted not to get killed, and the ones who came up with the god in the first place.

This is the way every religion gets started. People want explanations, a greater thing to back up their power, a feeling that they're in control of all the terrible things that happen around them. And so, we create gods.



It may happen, if they skip over all the rape, slavery, incest, war crimes, murder, etc. But reading the bible may count as an "experience". I didn't dispute what she said.



And how does one contradict the other? I have fun annoying you. That doesn't make what I say any less true.



Please back up what you're saying with something besides your opinion. Or any book that can only be believed through opinion.



Most likely because it contains rape, warfare, incest, slavery, murder, war crimes, etc. Also, there's a small part of the fandom that's very annoying.



Which I've done. Don't you remember a few pages ago, where I quoted from it?

I've even read the apocrypha. The Gospel of Thomas is awesome. Jesus fights a dragon. I don't care what I believe, that's just cool. Of course, he also kills a kid by aging him to death because he splashed in Jesus's puddle. No, that's not a euphemism. And he says "what did that puddle ever do to you?" before he does it. It's cracky fun.



And there are millions of pagan religions. What's your point?



Okay. I found one denomination that promotes slavery! Let me see...

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

"The slave will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)

Slavery is okay! I've found the one true denomination!



Yeah, it says that people will fight the Assyrians in the end days. Assyrians no longer exist. It also says that chariots will be used. I think the bible's vision is a little off.



I've read the bible, where he kills a bunch of kids for mocking Elijah. I don't think his will is good.



Ooh, Pascal's Wager! "If you're a Christian and Christianity is right, you go to heaven and if not, you go in the ground. If you're an atheist and atheism is right, you go in the ground and if not, you go to hell. Which sounds more reasonable?"

Tell me something: there are millions of religions out there. Why yours? If I believe in Hinduism and it's right, I spend eternity in a state of pure bliss. They're older than Christianity, they have older documents - like the Ramayana - and I don't have to spend eternity with Jehovah's Witnesses, so there's obviously no hell in it. Plus, if I slip off the path and can't repent in this life, I simply reincarnate and do it in the next life. So far, it sounds like a better deal than your religion. Isn't it good logic to do what'll maximize my chances at life/a happy afterlife?

Not true!

Romans 1:19, 20 says, . . . “ what may be known about God is manifest . . . for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.”

The above scripture has been proven true.

Ivar Lissner in his book Man, God and Magic says, “No one who has carried out research among the oldest primitive peoples can fail to understand that they all conceive of God, that they possess a lively awareness of a supreme being.”

And what is that supposed to prove? You're just quoting the bible again...

My point is, a person can't believe in something they don't believe in, and to believe in a god you must have faith that this particular god exists. Without faith, there is no god.

There are hundreds, maybe even thousands of various religions and beliefs, there were even more in earlier times. They all either had one or multiple gods, and most of these gods said one time or another that they were the true gods. What makes the Christian god so special? It is just one god among thousands.

Anyway, As for the book, it sounds a whole lot more than opinion than truth.
Sure, ancient societies had their gods too, but they didn't exactly do a lot of science, did they? They made up gods to explain things like lightning, sunsets and seasons, everything they didn't understand. Except, now we know what causes most of these phenomenons - and *newsflash* pretty much everything has a completely natural and logical reason behind it, and there's nothing to prove there's a god behind it. What we don't yet know is what happens after we die (although there's a perfectly reasonable scientific explanation - the brain dies and your "soul" die, and that's it), and how the "Big Bang" started. But we're nearly there, so I'm pretty much waiting for the scientific explanation.

And when exactly was the scripture proven true? And which scripture? Could you please show me some scientific papers on that? Or perhaps some valid historical references? Because as I've said, I don't consider the bible a scientific text, and not even of historical value (as quite a lot of the things in it are not historically, nor scientifically correct). If it has not been tested and proven in a proper scientific way, it holds no real value to me.

I understand people's needs to feel there is something more, something like a god. I felt like that for quite a while, too. But then I grew up and got interested in science and started seeing religion for what it really is - a means of controlling people and/or for keeping them satisfied. I no longer had need of believing in a god, particularly not the Christian/Jewish god. Much too moody for my taste... A god that commits genocide when he's pissed off, gets his own son killed, and puts impossible tasks on the shoulders of people (that and more is written IN the bible) - while claiming it still loves humanity - can't be trusted, nor should it be worshipped. I can't see any unconditional love in there, either. All I can see is condition upon condition upon condition. "Build a boat and put more animals than can possibly get on a boat onto it, and survive in a rainstorm for 40 days - I don't care how you do it, just do it! Kill your son to prove yourself to me! Kill lots of sheep to... well, just do it because I said so! Son, go piss off the Romans! Don't kill! Don't steal! Don't do this! Don't do that! Oh, but you can keep slaves, that's fine - as long as they don't die if you whip them, of course!" - and so on and so on and so on.

(I must admit I've forgotten most of the bible stories - I guess I switched it out with more useful knowledge, but that's pretty much what this god ever does; is a douchebag in the old testament and some of the new, and tells you to love him for it or you won't get into his fantasy world when you die - that people actually still manage to believe this... ).

Tsk. Guess you can't answer the simple objections of a nonbeliever.



Of course, for this to act as proof, you have to believe the bible is true. And you only believe the bible is true if you believe it's the word of your god. And so someone who doesn't believe in your god won't believe that it's true, so quoting the bible at us is pointless.



Oh? So if the oldest primitive peoples all conceive of your god, then do they all follow his rules? I mean, all his rules are set up because he cares about his followers, right? And people generally follow rules that are supposed to keep them safe (though the exceptions are much more visible than the majority). So if they conceive of him and worship him, why hasn't he given them those rules to follow? Does that mean he doesn't care about all his followers?

Also, I thought the Nazis hated/slaughtered Jehovah's Witnesses. Why are you quoting a spy who helped them find and kill people from your own religion?

I'm not ignoring you, I see no reason to debate people's opinions, or debate other time wasters . . . unless I can turn it into a witness for others.




You’re just giving your opinion again, so I’ll give my opinion. My opinion is that most unbelievers question things in the Bible without cause. There’s nothing at all wrong with questioning the Bible, the problem is if people can’t readily find an answer they give up and then form their opinion without sufficient justification for it.




Obviously you are referring to what the Apostle Paul said at Colossians 2:16,17, “Therefore let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ.”

Just reading that scripture without context however doesn’t give you a definitive answer as to whether you should follow those requirements or not. However the Bible does shows that the answer to all your questions is no.

After God brought Israel out of slavery in Egypt he proposed a formal agreement with them, called a covenant. That agreement, besides containing the Ten Commandments also included some 600 other laws. The dietary laws, Jewish festivals, and Sabbath rules were all part of this agreement.

This was a formal agreement with Israel only. However, Israel failed to keep the agreement, and then rejected Jesus so God rejected them as his nation.

You may ask, but what about the Law Covenant, is it still in effect for Christians today?

We need to know the answer to that to determine whether we should obey the dietary laws, Jewish festivals, and Sabbath rules, don’t we?

To find the answers to our questions we need to first answer another question, that being, ‘why did Jehovah give his law to Israel?’

The apostle Paul answers, “To make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made . . . Consequently the Law has become our tutor [or, teacher] leading to Christ.” (Galatians 3:19-24)

The special purpose of the Law was to protect and guide the nation of Israel so that they might be ready to accept Christ when he arrived. The many sacrifices required by the Law reminded the Israelites that they were sinners who needed a Savior.( Hebrews 10:1-4)

Jesus of course, was that promised Savior, so when he gave his perfect life as a sacrifice, what happened to the Law? It was removed.

Remember above, at Galatians 3:19-24 the Apostle Paul had said the law had become a tutor leading to Christ. The next verse Galatians 3:25 explains, “We are no longer under a tutor.”

Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law,” Paul said. (Galatians 3:10-14) The Bible also says: “Christ is the end of the Law.” (Romans 10:4; 6:14.)

We see the Law Covenant ended with Christ Jesus, so nobody is required to obey any of those laws. That would include the dietary laws, Jewish festivals, and Sabbath rules. That also means we are not required to tithe.



Jesus’ disciples were doing what Jesus told them to do, thus he started the religion that now bears his name. For example, who gets the credit for something, the one giving the orders, or the worker bees?

Matthew 28:16-20 says, However, the eleven disciples went into Gali·lee to the mountain where Jesus had arranged for them, and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted. And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. . .

To repeat verse 20, all Jesus’ disciples were ‘to observe everything he commanded them.’

As for the Apostle Paul he was a pharisee and was actually persecuting Jesus disciples until he himself was converted by Jesus. This was after the Christian Congregation was already set up.

Faith is believing what you know is true. If there were absolute proof then it wouldn't be faith. The fact that someone already has a concept of and believes in a God proves that there is a God. Thank my pastor for that one.


Yes, the war is coming and billions will die. And who is responsible for it? We are for letting sin happen. The Catholic church will have a covenant with the United States government to persecute Christians. There may not be any signs of preparation of it now, but you can't prove it won't happen. But first the temple needs to be rebuilt, which will happen.


What he meant was this generation of Christians, and the same generation of believers in His time is still here.

Only proves to me it's not worth it to discuss religion with you, because you won't listen or even take in consideration anything that goes against your beliefs.

My faith was destroyed by my faith because I could not find anything to back it up. No answered prayers, no "viewings", and no nothing else. If there are no answers to be found, then why should I continue having faith?

That's the difference between us, I guess. If there had been proofs that there was no god, you would probably keep to your faith. But if I saw proof with my own eyes that there was a god (be it your god, Zeus, Thor with the Hammer, Ra, or any other) I would be inclined to acually believe it. But I haven't, so I don't believe it.



Faith is believing what you THINK is true. There is a significant difference...
You don't know anything is true unless there are proofs, and unless everyone can see those proofs are real. That's why you need to have faith in the first place.

Believing in a god only proves there is a god to those who have faith there is one. Not to those who don't believe it.

I don't need faith to believe gravity keeps me from flying into space. We can't see this force, but we know that the force we call gravity is keeping us down, because big objects pull smaller objects toward it (very simply said). It is also one of the weakest powers in nature, allowing us to lift something, jump, and even send up airplanes. But faith isn't required for it to work. We don't pray to gravity, or offer it anything, and it still continues to work. Gravity just is. What goes up usually comes back down. And it has science backing it up. Not pastors...

As I've repeatedly said, believing in a god only proves people don't know everything yet. A god is the number one used explanation for things that can not be explained, until there is a logical and scientific explanation to it. Has been so ever since we wore animal skins for clothes and lived in caves.



Which war? World war 3, perhaps? No signs of that one yet. If people had been able to learn from their own and other people's mistakes, we would not even have a new war. But if there's one thing history has learned us it has to be that certain people are stupid enough to repeat mistakes over and over again. A lot of these people happen to be believers in some sort of religion, and the religious leaders have a knack of starting disagreements.

If we could all manage to live in peace, and if people kept their religions to themselves, I think there would have been a lot less warfare over the years.

Sin is only sin seen from the other part. If you ask a so-called sinner if he's guilty of anything, he will usually say no, because he believes the thing he does is right. Unless, of course, it's a religious sinner. For some reason they insist they're sinners when they've not even done anything. Which is one of the reasons I don't want to follow any religions where people are sinners by default. To me, that is a wrong view. Especially when they insist on destroying any other so-called sinners who don't follow their religion.

And why would Catholics or even Americans persecute Christians? Catholics are Christians, aren't they? And quite a lot of Americans are Christians of some sort.

To be honest I don't think you have the faintest idea of what you're talking about. Temples, Christians prosecuting themselves, and preparations for a war that there is no sign of. It sounds like words of craziness to me...

You're saying that there are people today who have been alive for 2,000+ years? And nobody has noticed a bunch of people who presumably aren't aging? Especially after the inventions of the convenient camera, the internet, and phones that combine both?

So there are a bunch of immortals around who are waiting for a final confrontation at the end of time. Is anyone else hearing the Highlander theme song playing in their head? Ooh, if you cut off their heads, does the Holy Spirit come out and make the killer more powerful?

The oldest recorded person was a woman called Jeanne Calment. She was 122 years and 164 days old. Not anywhere near 2000 years. The oldest person still alive is Misao Okawa, who is 115 years and 143 days old. Also not anywhere near 2000 years old. Both female, by the way. All the 10 oldest people still living are female. The oldest recorded male was 116 years and 54 days. He's the only male on the top ten list of recorded old people.

For the record, no one in the last century has reached over 123 years (that we have recorded, anyway - these people you talk of must be really good to hide if they've not been seen in 2000 years).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest...t_people_living

So 900 years or thereabout (Noah)? Or even 2000+? And if it says in the bible that certain people lived beyond 150 years, it's just another proof of the bible having been made up. Do you know how a person looks like when they've passed 100 years? Imagine if they're 2000 years! The very notion of this is ludicrous.

But guys, everyone knows that all things are possible with Harry Potter Jesus!

@Mistermook