What about the 'Effect/Affect' debate? Sooo many people have trouble knowing what's the difference between the two and I have to admit, I just remembered what it was a few months ago. If you're still confused:

Effect is a noun. It is a result of an affect.
Affect is a verb. It causes an effect.

I am pretty chill with bad grammar on forum posts. For my story, I use meticulous grammar. For my school work and my formal writings, I use meticulous grammar. Everything else? Typo city, bad grammar-oplis, and new-word-coinage-burg.

As long as something is understandable, I don't care about the grammar. My one major pet peeve (thank goodness I've only seen it once or twice) is improper verb tense, because I interpret it as tenses and get really confused 'til I realize that the person can't write. Then I leave and don't continue reading.

the double negative thing was something i never got. it was a forced, 18th century attempt to apply the principals of mathematics to english grammar, which is ridiculous. unlike math, language doesn't need to adhere to such strict formalities to work well.

First off, I'll say this: I haven't read through all the posts. I only got through the beginning of HP's second post, but there's something that's really bothering me. Many people, in their posts complaining about grammar and general English mistakes...are making those same mistakes.

About the teaching of English in schools: English class usually focuses on literature, not on grammar, syntax and the like. The English that you learn as a non-native speaker won't ever be the same as the English that is spoken in various English speaking countries. As an English tutor, we learned that you can't really teach people grammar. Even native speakers, there are certain things we pick up on first, regardless of what you learn in school. It's not known why, but there are just some things we (everyone learning English) just pick up on first. The cursive issue: as some have said, their cursive sucks. I think that's why cursive is no longer taught; it's just too hard to read and I don't think people want to put with having to decipher ancient runes (different handwritings)

For those of you interested in linguistics or just the transformaton and dialects of American English, I recommend a PBS documentary called "Do You Speak American?"

Actually, just to further confuse you, effect is also a verb. It means to 'bring something about'.

Consider these:

1. "His actions effected the situation"
2. "His actions affected the situation"

Number 1 means that the situation didn't exist until he brought it about. Number 2 means the situation existed, and was changed into its current state by his actions.

So you can "effect a war" by starting a war, or you can "affect a war" by making a currently state of war better or worse. Sex "effects a baby", but drinking during pregnancy "affects a baby." A policy can "effect public opinion" if it causes people to have an opinion, or it can "affect public opinion" if it changes their opinions.

Just to be confusing. (and to regain my English nit-picker status after HystericalParoxysm correctly pointed out to me that indirect objects can be directly preceded by a verb. At least where the direction of action, normally indicated by a preposition, is obvious).

Just out of curiosity... is this really correct? Because I have always learned that it is "s" and then apostrophe with no extra "s." As in "Jesus'" and not "Jesus's." And this is one of those unique cases where people will commonly pronounce the extra "s" when they are really not supposed to. I'm from Michigan (USA) so maybe it could vary in where you live?

Generally, with the possessive name ending in "s", you write as 's: Jess's. If you look up the rule, some grammar books/rules will say "write it however you would say it." So if you would pronounce it Jessiz book, write it Jess's. If you pronounc it Jess book, with more of a silent apostrophe, write it Jess'. With historical names (Jesus, Dickens) it's always with an apostrophe: Jesus', Dickens'. It's not something that was taught in school for long.

If you think about it, school can only do so much. Think about that show, Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader? How much of that do you actually remember? How much of the things you learn in grade school do you have to dump in order to shove more useless crap into your mind? It's not surprising that many things get dumped into the trash bin.

About dialects: you can't fault dialects, and there is no such thing as a "good" dialect or a "bad dialect." When we say one dialect is bad, we simply mean that it doesn't sound right to us. I think the distinction needs to be made that there is a Standard Academic English (what we're calling "proper" english) and any dialect or derivative language.

is that different from 'american tongues', the PBS documentary that was shown in every single grammar, linguistics or anthro class i ever took?

There is no hard rule, but I think modern names and objects ending in 's' have an apostrophe plus an 's', but historical names just have the apostrophe.

I'm pretty sure I was taught you don't add a 's on to the end of someone's name ending in s. Very sure, infact.
I'm sad that English is deteriorating, boo.

It ticks me off when businesses spell things incorrectly on purpose such as using a K for cat instead of a C. How are children suppose to learn.

I see your point, Deeney. But children should be learning proper language from their parents and schools. Of course this obviously doesn't happen. Nothing ever works out the way it should work out.

I understand what you're saying. The English language is like, one of the most confusing languages!

Have not read the whole thread but in general no. I myself does not have firm grasp on english grammar. What bothers me more is when people use "elite" or "geek" speak. Typically in some other forums, such being called a "noob" for being wrong or making a mistake. Replacing letters with numbers and symbols. Adding new meanings to words etc.

Languages need to evolve but adding new meanings to existing words because some group thinks it is "cool" to use it in such a manner is not what I feel is right.

No wonder many universities and employers are shaking their heads at the declining standards in some of their applicants.

Just my opinion.

kinneer wins the thread.

Thank you.

What did I win?

In my school grammar is violently beaten into our heads with sticks. If you take English (a required class) in this state you have to learn what they call "the new grammar" basically its the old grammar, but they rename everything, and in an effort to make it less confusing, they teach you the king's english until sixth grade and then in English you learn this new grammar.

But they do beat some form of grammar into our head every year, and in foreign languages you pick up a lot (why do people sometimes say alot, but never say acrapload?) of english grammar and rules. At least in my experience.

Lastly, apostrophe, no S is only used for plurals. Apostrophe S is for singlular. Jess's house. Jess Smith and Jess Jones spent so much time at George's house that the place was Jess' house. Pronounced the same, but only plurals are apostrophe, no S. Unless its abreviations, in which case its a matter of personal taste. ACS's or ACS' are both acceptable. (at least according to my english textbook)

Right, but wouldn't it be Jesses' house?

Yes, I meant to say that "s" followed by apostrophe is for the plural form, thanks for clearing that up for those who were confused.

I don't care if someone's grammar or spelling is bad. Immaturity, intolerance, and netspeak are bigger annoyance issues for me.

To answer Soapstar: I'm not sure. I've never heard of the documentary you're talking about, but I do know "Do You Speak American" is rather old. Listening to the slang they use makes me think so. 'Tis a little dated.

About the "alot" issue, I think it has to do with the way we say those to words. Go ahead, try it We (American English speakers, at least) tend to run those words together. In grade school, one of the ways children are taught to spell is to "sound it out." Personally I always hated that because then you have children spelling are with just the letter "R". If you ask me, this is where the shorthand comes from.

A lot of the text speak comes from spelling words phonetically, with some distinction between words that sound alike (no and kno). I think one of the reasons a lot of shorthand gets created is the need to get your message across quickly--be it in text message, on a message board (because you have to rush somewhere else), talking on the phone (because I think some shorthand also applies to speech), or what have you. If you want to blame something for the "decline" of the English language, blame a fast paced society where things must be done quickly. People get used to being on the go, and a lot of people can't/won't/don't find the time to slow down and relax.

As for non-native speakers: please don't ever be upset that the English you're learning as a second language isn't the English that's spoke. The same can be said for _anyone_ who's learning a language in school. It's impossible to be taught the dialects of a language because there's so many of them. So what they teach instead is an incredibly formal language, where you pronounce everything the way it's supposed to be pronounced. This almost never happens. Ever. Even for the "prim and proper" it isn't true. Let's even just drop dialects. What about different lingo/jargon associated with different professions? I mean, I could throw out some jargon from my time at a bank, and some of you would have no idea what I was talking about. Should jargon be banned as well? Couldn't that be seen as destroying the English language?

Tell you what; the 'athiest soldiers' thread is beginning to annoy me now, because of the spelling mistake in the title.

Don't mind what-so-ever, as long as the message gets thru.

But i do find it very funny that people would insult other people using bad grammar (in mmorpg) I would then ROFLMAO or point and laught at them, not for using bad grammar, but as an excuse to bash them because they insult other people for no apparent reasons.

The thing is, it's (not its) "The dog ate its food". Instead of The dog ate its food." The end of a sentence, the full stop, exclamation mark, question mark etc. should come after the end quote.

Otherwise, it does bother me generally. I'm very specific with spellings and grammar, but I don't really mind typos, but you could at least try to start sentences with capital letters and stuff.

Formal writing should have proper grammar, but so should almost all other texts. OK, forum writing, and typos is all right (or alright) once in a while, but if you're an English-speaking native, you really should try.

no, that's not correct. punctuation precedes the closing quotation mark.